Spaces: Exploration of Art Venues, Notes 5: Non-profit Venues

On Saturday, March 9, the Oklahoma Visual Arts Coalition offered the Artist Survival Kit workshop, “Spaces: An Exploration of Art Venues.” During this workshop, five speakers shared their experiences with different art venue types including retail, restaurants, commercial galleries, non-profit venues, and auctions/secondary markets. In this series of blog posts, we share notes from each speaker thanks to ASK Committee Co-chair Sarah Atlee.
Glenn Herbert Davis, Tulsa
Over, Mixed Media, 11′ x 13′ 5″ x 5′ 11″
Glenn Herbert Davis: Not-for-profit, university, and alternative spaces
These types of spaces will often be self-funded and are often funded through grants. Sales tend to be anomalous, rather than the rule.
When showing at this type of venue, an artist will need to transport and/or ship their work, may be giving public talks, and may spend some time in residence. There is often an educational programming component. A university, for example, usually covers at least part of these costs, and may offer the artist a stipend.
Glenn’s work is mostly site-specific installation, often with performative or time-based aspects. His work does not often lend itself to sales.
Advice for showing at a university:
Ask for what you need.
Don’t question policy. (Example – if you are required to install between the hours of 8 am and 5 pm, respect that.)
Respect the time of the people who are helping you.
Be as practical and forthcoming as possible. Keep lines of communication open.
Don’t expect venue organizers to drop everything for you. Be prepared to work within their limitations.
Be organized, and do the job you agreed to do.
Every exhibition involves a practical exchange of services and time (which may or may not include money). There are no gifts.
Glenn looks for interesting, ambitious, enjoyable, low-cost things to do. If he can get paid in the process, even better. By creating repeatable, packageable works, he opens up a wider range of potential venues. He makes sure to have detailed documentation and instructions for disassembly and reassembly.
Glenn uses Sketchup to create 3-d models of his work for proposals. He encourages physically visiting an exhibition space, not just relying on floor plans provided.
Not-for-profit spaces typically review submissions by committee, rather than a single person. The committee may be separate from the venue’s institution. There may be members who are brought in specifically to review your work. Keep in mind that when your submission is under review by a committee, they are on the lookout for reasons why you might be too much trouble to deal with.
Not-for-profit exhibition cycles tend to be shorter than commercial venues. Glenn will often have about five days to install, followed by the opening, then about three weeks of exhibition time before takedown.

Spaces: Exploration of Art Venues, Notes 4: Galleries/Secondary Markets

On Saturday, March 9, the Oklahoma Visual Arts Coalition offered the Artist Survival Kit workshop, “Spaces: An Exploration of Art Venues.” During this workshop, five speakers shared their experiences with different art venue types including retail, restaurants, commercial galleries, non-profit venues, and auctions/secondary markets. In this series of blog posts, we share notes from each speaker thanks to ASK Committee Co-chair Sarah Atlee.
Painting by David Crismon
David Crismon: Galleries and secondary markets
After your work leaves the studio…
Price your work to cover your production costs. If you’re unsure about how to price your work, a gallery can offer guidance there. [Holly Wilson mentioned that it is very important to have your work priced the same at every venue, so as not to undercut anyone.]
50% commission is typical for commercial galleries. Keep in mind all that the gallery does to earn that portion: overheads, promotion, hanging and lighting, shipping, and more.
A gallery might be more interested in selling your work than in its content.
David recommends asking friends for gallery recommendations.
Auction houses mostly sell work by artists who are deceased, though occasionally work by living artists is sold at auction. An auction house will typically take a flat percentage from a sale below a certain dollar value, after which their commission will increase incrementally. Auction houses may inflate prices, in part because they invest a lot of money into potential sales by producing expensive catalogues and other advertising.
For living artists, auction prices will affect that artist’s retail prices.

Spaces: Exploration of Art Venues, Notes 3: Galleries & Art Fairs

On Saturday, March 9, the Oklahoma Visual Arts Coalition offered the Artist Survival Kit workshop, “Spaces: An Exploration of Art Venues.” During this workshop, five speakers shared their experiences with different art venue types including retail, restaurants, commercial galleries, non-profit venues, and auctions/secondary markets. In this series of blog posts, we share notes from each speaker thanks to ASK Committee Co-chair Sarah Atlee.
Holly Wilson, With Her Birdens, Bronze and Silver, 8.5″ x 4″ x 4″

Holly Wilson: Commercial Galleries and art fairs
Holly emphasizes that the worst thing a potential gallery can tell you is “No.” That’s as bad as it gets. The important thing is to muscle past the fear, and just ask. You never know what will happen after you start the conversation.
They may tell you that they love your work, but that it’s not the right fit for their gallery. Be courteous, thank them for their time, and ask them to recommend other galleries that you might approach.
Holly also emphasizes visiting potential spaces in person. Know what the walls are made of, and if the gallery uses a special hanging system. This is especially true for wall sculpture.
Research, research, research! Holly goes to art fairs like SOFAand Art Chicago. She gets all the information she can about a fair ahead of time. She visits the website of every single gallery that will be there, and narrows down a list of those she wants to investigate further. She gets a floor plan of the fair exhibitors, and spends a whole day walking around and making further notations about what galleries may or may not be good for her work.
Holly may research specific artists she likes, to find out where they’ve shown, and cross-reference that information with her gallery research. She also asks other artists for gallery recommendations.
When approaching a gallerist, she makes sure to have an *excellent* image of her work on a postcard to leave behind.
Tip: dress like a buyer, not like an artist. Keep in mind that galleries spend $20,000 – $80,000 for a booth at the best trade fairs, not to mention all the advertising they do.
Questions HW asks about potential commercial galleries:
Do they have branches in other cities?
Do they go to art fairs?
Do they have good relationships with their buyers & collectors? Have they cultivated these relationships over time?
Do they work to have magazine articles published about their artists?
Are their websites good? Do they make good use of social media?
Is the gallery in an arts district? Is there a potential for foot traffic from nearby businesses?
Specific advice for artists who work with bronze or similar materials:
Research your foundry costs. Your casting cost per piece, multiplied by 3, is a good guideline for the piece’s retail price. A gallery that takes a 50% commission on sales of paintings should only take 30% on sales of bronze works.
Holly recently participated in the Heard Museum Guild IndianFair & Market for the first time. Rather than use the typical art fair exhibition booth setup, she built herself a tiny white-walls gallery, in order to better show off her work. She built three 4×8′ panels of cabinet-grade plywood, supported by custom-cut and threaded plumbing pipe (hidden by 1×2 strips). The setup is modular, transportable, and reusable. It was very eye-catching and made her work much more visible.
As an exhibitor, Holly chose to apply specifically to the Heard Museum and Santa Fe Indian Market art fairs in order to attract high-end galleries, curators, and collectors. She took out a $400, 1/6-page color ad in a Native American arts magazine with a very large circulation, specifically to bring people to her booth at the Heard fair – it worked, and also resulted in a significant increase in her website traffic.
Remember, an artist is a business, so conduct yourself accordingly. You’re responsible for promoting yourself. When you make sales, reinvest that money back into your business.
For print promotion, Holly makes sure to have excellent photos of her work. She carries a basic postcard and business cards that she gets from to hand out. She also uses business cards from Moo, which are higher quality prints, for more special occasions. Holly has created a larger foldout brochure specifically to send to certain high end galleries.

Spaces: Exploration of Art Venues, Notes 2: Restaurants

On Saturday, March 9, the Oklahoma Visual Arts Coalition offered the Artist Survival Kit workshop, “Spaces: An Exploration of Art Venues.” During this workshop, five speakers shared their experiences with different art venue types including retail, restaurants, commercial galleries, non-profit venues, and auctions/secondary markets. In this series of blog posts, we share notes from each speaker thanks to ASK Committee Co-chair Sarah Atlee.
Watercolor painting by Tommy Lee Ball
Tommy Ball: Artistic Restauraunteering
Know your venue – do your homework.
When approaching a potential restaurant, have your portfolio, business cards, and other print materials ready, so they can see your images immediately. Tommy leaves small digital prints on watercolor paper with the owners of potential venues. They are small gifts that are very memorable.
The best time to talk to a restaurant owner is on a weekday afternoon between 2 and 4 pm. Leave your contact info with them, and remember to follow up.
Questions to ask about potential restaurant venues:
Have they ever shown art before? Do they do so regularly?
How often do they rotate new art in?
What is their submission policy? Who handles art submissions?
Price points: is your work priced appropriately for the venue?
Is there a sales commission? How much? Restaurants often take no commission, but artists should be prepared to handle their own sales.
Is your work a good fit for this venue? Generally, grotesque subject matter, nudes, etc. should be avoided.
How are the walls? Do you have their permission to drill holes if that’s required for hanging your work?
How is the lighting? Tommy often hangs his own clip lights in restaurants. Sometimes this requires minor electrical work on his part. An example of this can be seen at the Forge co-working space in Tulsa.
Have they offered to hang your work for you? Make sure they know how to properly hang art, and make it easy for them by having your work be display-ready with proper wiring.
Be professional: be on time! Respect the fact that they are running a business, and you are not their top priority.
Be sure to get direct contact information for the restaurant owner. If there’s a problem, you want to be able to talk directly to them.
What if the restaurant closes, or moves, while your work is hanging there? What if you try to get your work back and it’s locked up somewhere? Have a contract with provisions for situations like this, and get actual legal help making it.
On price points: Tommy shows different work depending on the prices at a particular venue. He may show originals or prints. For restaurants where a customer would spend $50-$100 on a meal, he may show original paintings priced around $1,000. For restaurants that charge $10-$20 a plate, he’ll show prints priced around $200.
Make your own wall tags. Tommy includes his name, the medium and substrate, information about the frame, and his contact info. He does not display prices.
New restaurants are great, because an artist can help them out by making their interiors look better for their launch, attracting more customers.
To physically protect his work in restaurants, Tommy frames everything with glass and caulks the seam between the frame and the backing. This way, he can prevent food smells and moisture from creeping inside the frame and being absorbed by the paper.
While your work is up in a restaurant, be a patron. Bring people you know to eat there.
If your work is hanging for more than a month or two, check in with them once a month. Bring new work, or simply refresh your display by rearranging the existing work.
Know when the show will end. Contact the restaurant owner 2-4 weeks before your work comes down. Don’t leave them with bare walls! Remember, they are not gallerists, and may want more time to line up the next artist to show there. They’ll appreciate recommendations for other artists.
When you deinstall, leave their walls in better shape than you found them.
Thank the restaurant management and staff in a personal, special way.
Tommy doesn’t have to search for new venues these days – he’s spent enough time cultivating good relationships with restaurants that now they approach him.

Finding the Artistic Venue That’s Right For You

Excerpted from Advanced Strategies for Marketing Art by Constance Smith (Chapter 3)

Momentum OKC 2013 artwork, photo by Rex Barrett

As you start researching places to sell your work, remember that your main goal is to get your work in front of the public for reviewing. If they don’t see it, they can’t react, nor can they buy. Your first aim should not be a New York gallery—or any gallery, for that matter. If that’s your aim, you’re hoeing a difficult path. (Make a gallery your priority only after you have gained a reputation.)

A target market is the group of people toward whom you will concentrate your sales efforts. Many artists overlook sales opportunities that could be quite profitable to them and think only of getting into a gallery. Artists I am acquainted with who are making a living from the sale of their artwork earn most of their income from sources other than galleries. 
Niche market
Take a notebook and answer the questions below. You will then have a better understanding of the specific people who might like to purchase your artwork, where to find them, and how to attract them. This is your niche market. Don’t be misled to think that the larger the niche market, the more sales you will have. Small is good: Word spreads fast in a small group.
Momentum OKC 2013 artwork, photo by Rex Barrett

Who is attracted to my artwork?

  • Men      Women      Children     All         
  • Marital status
  • Ethnic background
  • Age group 
  • Religion
  • Income level
  • Education level
  • What do they read?
  • Where do they hang out?
  • How can I  get their attention? 
  • What are their reasons for buying my art?            
  • What organizations do they belong to?
  • Specific region of the country to sell to?
  • Describe exactly what I am selling.
  • Define more specifically my target market.
  • Features of my artwork.
  • Benefits to buyer: Can I offer something more, something different, something better than my competitors? 
  • Experience, authority, expertise: Why would someone trust me?
  • How will buying my artwork make the customer’s life better?
  • How can people pay for their purchase (credit card, check, terms)? Will this satisfy my target market?
  • Am I able to produce enough original pieces for potential buyers in my target market?
  • Are there any legal considerations in selling my product to this (or any other) market?

Learn from a more in-depth discussion of artistic venue options at the Artist Survival Kit workshop, “Spaces: An Exploration of Artistic Venues” on Saturday, March 9, 1-4 pm at MAINSITE Contemporary Art Gallery in Norman. More information and registration available at

Promoting Your Work: A Creative Capital Recap

The Oklahoma Visual Arts Coalition recently hosted the Creative Capital Core Weekend Workshop, an intensive weekend retreat for 24 artists focused on business training.

A good amount of time was spent discussing key elements for promoting your work. Two of the most important tools you can have for promotion are images and words.

Much of the world will never have the chance to see your work in person. Think about this: how many people would recognize the Mona Lisa? Now, how many have seen that work in person? Most haven’t, but they are familiar with it because of the images they have seen.

Not only do your artwork images help with promotion, they also serve as an archive for you.

The quality of the image matters, too. Which of these images looks better to you? 

Stuart Asprey, Dog Can, Ceramic

Stuart Asprey, Nutz 3 Ways, Ceramic

Hopefully you agree that the 2nd image looks better. It is cropped well, the work is evenly lit with shadows that accentuate rather than distract, and it has a clean and unobtrusive background.

Check this previous blog post for more examples of good vs. bad images.

This means anything you say or write about your work. Words are important for artist statements, press releases, artist talks, cocktail parties, openings… the list goes on. When communicating about your work in words, think about these things:

  • What do you want people to know about your work?
  • What are people curious about? Listen to your viewers. What are they asking you?

These questions are a good starting place for determining what’s most important to express.

Need more help?

If you need more help with the images and words related to your work, I encourage you to attend our upcoming Portfolio & Proposal Boot Camp workshops, offered in OKC on September 8 and Tulsa on October 13. The workshops will cover photographing your art, writing an artist statement and resume, and successful proposal writing tips.

On both dates, we also offer appointments to have your work photographed for just $10 per piece.

Visit for details.

Getting Seen: Website Essentials

Author: Kerry Azzarello
Operations Manager, Oklahoma Visual Arts Coalition 

You make great art, now give others the opportunity to see it. At the recent Creative Capital Core Weekend Workshop we hosted in Oklahoma, facilitator Jackie Battenfield emphasized the importance of artist websites as a key component to a successful art practice. What follows are five essential website rules that will help you get and stay on the art world radar.  

Creative Capital Facilitator Aaron Landsman presenting at workshop

Rule #1 – Have one. 

Let’s face it, we all want to wait until we have the ‘perfect’ site built before making that leap. Alas, facilitators stressed that artists have more to fear from obscurity than by not achieving perfection with their web presence. Remember that your website is a stand-in for you and your work. Make sure you are present.

Rule #2 – Keep it simple.
HTML, Java, C++, YMCA. Tech-speak and acronyms can be intimating. Have no fear. Numerous companies including Weebly,  WordPress, and  FolioSnap offer easy to use, pre-designed templates that make getting your work on-line relatively painless. Custom-made websites can be costly. A little research could save you time and money, without sacrificing content and professionalism.

Creative Capital Core Weekend Workshop Participants & Facilitators

Rule #3 – Cover the basics.

As a visual artist, you know better than anyone the power of images. It is imperative to include samples of your work (complete with title, medium, and dimensions of course). However, it is just as important to include a moderate amount of explanatory text. Not only does it help provide valuable information to viewers (and potential buyers), it also helps Google bots boost your site in its search ranking.  Images + Text = Success!   

Rule #4 – Encourage a conversation.

Be it a gallery, a PO box, or your studio address ALWAYS include your contact information. Make this easy to find and large enough to read. Point 5 font hidden away at the bottom of the page won’t help spur a dialogue and may result in missed opportunities. Including links to any professional social media sites you may have can also keep a dialogue going.  

Creative Capital Core Workshop Participants Milissa Burkhart & Benita Brewer

Rule 5 – Update, update, update.
Once you have the website, be diligent in your updates. Adding new content, advertising your upcoming exhibitions, and posting current work are all great ways to keep collectors and the public up to date. Some artists choose to include work both for sale and previous sold. Others opt to only include works currently available. Pick what feels right for you and set aside time every month to update your site.

Ready to learn more? If you are tweaking a current site or making the leap to create your first one, I highly encourage you to visit Creative Capital’s Internet for Artists.

What do you think? Please comment and share your tips, successes, horror stories, and advice for creating amazing artist websites.

Report from National Arts Leadership Institute

Guest Author: Sam Wargin

During the week of July 16th I participated in a leadership institute in San Antonio, TX put on by the National Association of Latino Arts and Culture(NALAC). As a Latino artist and arts advocate from Oklahoma, the chance to be part of this year’s selection to attend was an exciting opportunity and turned out to be an incredibly humbling yet inspiring experience.
National Association of Latino Arts and Culture  Leadership Institute participants,
including Oklahoma artist & educator Sam Wargin (rear amid address numbers) 
NALAC is a nonprofit organization focused on promoting, developing, and cultivating the Latino arts field on a national level. Their efforts remind me a lot of what OVAC does by offering workshops, grants and other forms of support to artists and organizations, except it’s on a larger scale and with an emphasis on Latino artists and arts organizations.
The leadership institute itself consisted of 6 days of intensive training in the form of lectures, group activities, and conversations. Along with the 21 other participants, who represented organizations and communities from all across the country, I was being trained to be a leader within my community.
I think one of the most important things we could have taken away from that week is that, while we may have been learning and discussing what Latino art is and can be on a national level, we all have the responsibility–and now the capability–to bring those ideas and actions back to our own communities.
Sam Wargin (3rd from left) taking part in Artist Summit as part of the
Cultural Development Corporation ‘s Artist Support Study
It has been my dream for a while now to see Latinos in Oklahoma have more visibility and more access to the creative outlets offered by the arts whether it is through education or exposure. I applaud the efforts of the local art community to reach out and recognize what already exists in that regard, but I want more.
Being surrounded by the many established and up-and-coming artists, performers, directors, and organizers made me hungry to see our growing Latino community more engaged in the national conversation on Latino experiences in the arts and more involved in the growth that Oklahoma City, and the state as a whole is going through right now. The skills I learned through the leadership institute taught me how to go about turning my dream into a tangible reality, but it was the experience of a week surrounded by such inspiring individuals, faculty included, that gave me the motivation to continue investing the time and effort into creating the kind of future I’d like to see.

Calling all Oklahoma Artist Groups: Update Us

Are you involved with a visual artists’ group in Oklahoma?  Please check out this list and let us know what’s missing! You can make a comment below or on our Facebook page

We develop this list as part of our annual Resource Guide we send to members. We know each year things change and there are many active artists groups in our state.  Help us keep this comprehensive. We want to list any gathering, demo group, regular critique or the like that other visual artists may join. 

Groups for Artists: Discipline or Location -Specific:
  • Alpha Rho Tau: Tulsa area group with monthly demos, 918-227-5026
  • Arts in Tulsa: a website with artist directory and event listings for Tulsa area.
  • Bartlesville Art Association: Exhibitions, scholarships, workshops, art camps.
  • BasketWeavers Guild of Oklahoma: meets bimonthly at the National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum in OKC.
  • Canadian Valley Art Guild: Meet monthly at the Mabel C. Fry Library, Yukon on second Tuesday evening from September to May and organize exhibitions in the area.
  • Central Oklahoma Quilters Guild, Inc.: Educational programs for techniques and preservation of quilts, community service projects.  PO Box 23916, Oklahoma City
  • Central Oklahoma Woodturners Association: Demos, instruction
  • Cherokee Artists Association: Promotion and Tahlequah gallery for Native American artists.
  • The Cotton County Arts Council: Hosts studio art classes, exhibitions and festival. PO Box 364, Walters 73572, 580-875-2238
  • Dreamer Concepts Foundation: Supporting emerging artists, 324 East Main , Norman
  • Duncan Art Guild: Monthly meetings, hands on workshops, etc. President Janice Kirksey, Celebration Frames, 1102 Oak, Duncan, OK 73533 or 580-252-7488.
  • Edmond Art Association: Monthly meetings, festivals, exhibitions, workshops. PO Box 1272, Edmond 73038.
  • Enid Art Association: maintain gallery and membership.  580-237-8666, Oakwood Mall, 4125 W Owen K Garriott Rd, 73703.
  • Fiber Artists of Oklahoma: Organizes exhibitions, monthly demos in OKC & Tulsa.
  • Green Country Watercolor Association: Exhibitions, monthly meetings, demos. PO Box 140426
    Broken Arrow, OK 74014
  • Individual Artists of Oklahoma: Exhibitions, film, performance, poetry, 706 W Sheridan, OKC. 405-232-6060 or
  • Jacobson Foundation: Exhibitions and annual market for Native American artists, 609 Chautauqua Ave, Norman OK 73069-4604, 405-366-1667 or
  • Melton Art Reference Library: catalogs information about Oklahoma artists.
  • Mid-Del Art Guild: Monthly demos in Midwest City and workshops annually,
  • Muskogee Art Guild: Workshops, demos and shows.
  • Norman Studio Artists Association: networking and online gallery for Norman-based artists 
  • Oklahoma Art Guild: Monthly demos and two annual exhibitions.  P.O. Box 22712, OKC 73123
  • Oklahoma Machine Quilters Association: Meets monthly at 1755 N. Meridian Ave. in Oklahoma City,
  • Oklahoma Pastel Society: Regular meetings & demos, P.O. Box 75696, Oklahoma City, OK 73147
  • Oklahoma Silk Painters: Irma Braun-Hampton,
  • Oklahoma Sculpture Society: Monthly demo, sculpt-ins, and exhibitions, 405-387-4025 or
  • Okmulgee Art Guild, Inc.: 917 S Liberty St, Okmulgee, OK 74447
  • Oriental Brushwork Society: Norman 405-329-4006 or 405-848-5105
  • Painters & Sculptor Society of Holdenville: PO Box 375, 74848, 405-379-7079
  • Paseo Artists Association: Exhibitions and festival in Oklahoma City, 405-525-2688,
  • Plein Air Painters of Central Oklahoma: Painting outside from life with the safety of a group.  05-732-4977
  • Red Earth Inc.: Exhibitions, artist workshops, and festivals focused on Native Americans
  • Save it for Art: new organization encouraging material creative reuse/repurpose
  • Sooner Scribes: Study of calligraphy, monthly OKC meetings, Sharon McKay 405-728-0079 or
  • Stillwater Art Guild: Exhibitions, monthly meetings and workshops. 405-707-044
  • The Tulsa Artists Guild: Contact: Pat Compton 918-742-3933
  • Tulsa Artists Coalition: Gallery for emerging and established artists, 9 E Brady, Tulsa. 918-592-0041 or
  • Wichita Wildlight Photography Society: Lawton-area organization with exhibitions  and monthly meeting.  (580) 248-2371
FYI we also keep up listings for studio art classes, funding, and more… so if you have other ideas of new resources for artists in our state, feel free to comment. 

Business Resources: For the Skeptical Artist

Artist Survival Kit workshop participants
learning business strategies

Earlier on the blog I introduced the importance of small business resources for artists. I promised to summarize some of the helpful resources available in Oklahoma. 

Today, I write to the skeptical artists who do not see how their artwork can fit with normal business plans or don’t see the value in aligning with organizations like chambers of commerce.   Later, I will offer resources for artists who already understand their artistic practice as a business (and maybe some skeptics will be swayed).

Perhaps you are wondering, “why do I need to know about standard business strategies?”

Basically, thousands of business experts have worked for many years to outline making a business succeed.  Many have devoted lots of brain power and trial and error to define best practices. Many have worked to improve making businesses profitable.

Why duplicate all the effort and make the same mistakes when all this work has already been done for us? Knowledgeable specialists share many of their tips with us for free!
Artist Survival Kit workshop participants Sharon Webster
& Romy Owens learning business strategies
If that doesn’t convince you, certainly you do not want to break the law. Ignorance is not a defense if you neglect to follow tax law, insurance requirements and function well as a legal entity.  You can talk to anyone who has been audited over problems gathering sales tax or sued over a breach of contract to know that it is worth learning the basics for your business.

For the bare bones facts, check out the checklist from the Department of Commerce for startup businesses.  They give simple information about business structure (sole proprietor, S-corp, etc.), licensing and more. 

See here for free workshops by the Oklahoma Tax Commission about business taxes. Also, you can save money as a reseller with a sales tax permit if you buy supplies to make your art that you will later sell (and charge sales tax). 

The Department of Commerce also offers tips for expanding your existing business.

With a few steps and strategies, your small artistic business can be at the least legit and possibly on the road to profit.